Veiled...

Xavier William	2:12 PM (4 hours ago)

The discussions on truth and absolute truths reminds me of Plato's allegory  in Book VII of 'The Republic' wherein Plato compares our existence to prisoners tied up in a cave, so that they cannot turn around. Behind them there is a path along which people, animals, birds and vehicles of every kind move up an down and their shadows fall on the wall in front of the prisoners. It is from these shadows alone that the prisoners can assess what goes on outside the cave. With time, the people in the cave may increase their expertise and accuracy in interpreting the shadows on the wall before them. However, these interpretations can never match the reality of the world outside them in all its dimensions and ramifications. Likewise, we are also very much constrained by the limitations of our senses of perception. The things we perceive are mere shadows of the real world in all its dimensions and ramifications, in all its power and glory.

This is called the Veil Theory in epistemology. According to this theory, we can only perceive the veil of reality; total reality or absolute truth remains elusive. I would like to compare reality or truth to an onion with an infinite number of layers which can be peeled away. As we peel off each layer another layer of the onion is exposed. In the same way as we acquire more and more knowledge about anything we realize that more and more remains to be discovered about it.

Known and Hidden..

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 12:27 PM, devindersingh <devgulati@indiatimes.com> wrote:

only a small part whether of world-being or of our own being comes into our ken or into our action. The rest is hidden behind in subliminal reaches of being which descend into the profoundest depths of the subconscient and rise to highest peaks of superconscience, or which surround the little field of our waking self with a wide 

Page – 498

circumconscient existence of which our mind and sense catch only a few indications. The old Indian psychology expressed this fact by dividing consciousness into three provinces, waking state, dream-state, sleep-state, j&#257;grat, svapna, su&#351;upti; and it supposed in the human being a waking self, a dream-self, a sleep-self, with the supreme or absolute self of being, the fourth or Turiya, beyond, of which all these are derivations for the enjoyment of relative experience in the world.

If we examine the phraseology of the old books, we shall find that the waking state is the consciousness of the material universe which we normally possess in this embodied existence dominated by the physical mind. The dream-state is a consciousness corresponding to the subtler life-plane and mind-plane behind, which to us, even when we get intimations of them, have not the same concrete reality as the things of the physical existence. The sleep-state is a consciousness corresponding to the supramental plane proper to the gnosis, which is beyond our experience because our causal body or envelope of gnosis is not developed in us, its faculties not active, and therefore we are in relation to that plane in a condition of dreamless sleep. The Turiya beyond is the consciousness of our pure self-existence or our absolute being with which we have no direct relations at all, whatever mental reflections we may receive in our dream or our waking or even, irrecoverably, in our sleep consciousness.
[The Synthesis of Yoga, pp498-99]
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=OqZOkjxsmn0C&pg=PA498&lpg=PA498&dq=only+a+small+part+whether+of+world-being+or+of+our+own+being+comes+into+the+ken+of+our+action.&source=bl&ots=rzJybEhXx4&sig=M95Ww9nJpb5nZdF1U-461ai4tJw&hl=en#v=onepage&q=only%20a%20small%20part%20whether%20of%20world-being%20or%20of%20our%20own%20being%20comes%20into%20the%20ken%20of%20our%20action.&f=false

The Soul is...

- In TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" <devgulati@... wrote:

 The soul is four-footed, or has four conditions. 

The Mandukya Upanisad describes the four conditions that are grades of consciousness. 

The first condition is the waking state in which the soul is conscious of external objects, enjoys gross things through five cognitive organs, five motor organs, five vital principles, and mind (manas), intellect (buddhi), egoism ( Ahamkara) and memory (chitta). It is called Vaisavarna. 

The second condition is the dream state in which the soul is conscious of internal objects, enjoys subtle things through the mind (manas) invested with the subconscious impressions of waking cognitions, and impelled by nescience (avidya), attachment (kama), and merits and demerits (karma), independently of the external sense organs. This is called Taijasa. 

The third condition is deep sleep in which the soul desires no desires, and dreams no dreams. In this state the soul is centred in itself, filled with consciousness and bliss. It is called Prajana. In it the mental mode of waking and dream cognition cease, the distinction of subject and object ceases and there is no trace of pain. 

The fourth condition is superconsciousness in which the soul is conscious neither of external objects, nor of internal objects, nor of both, nor a mass of consciousness, and transcends both consciousness and unconsciousness. It is imperceptible, un-communicable, incomprehensible, indeterminate, unthinkable, indefinable, the essence of intuition of the self, transcendent, tranquil, good and non-dual. The soul in this highest state is called Turiya or Atman. 

 According to Brahmopanishad the Atman is in the eyes in the first state, in the throat in the second state, in the heart in the third state, and in the head in the fourth state.

 The Turyatita Upanishad mentions the state transcending the fourth (turiya) which apprehends pure transcendental consciousness (cinmatra). 

 The Brahmabindu Upanishad mentions unmanibhava as the highest state, when the mind is completely restrained on the heart, withdrawn from objects and freed from attachment.

 In the terms Integral Yoga, if the consciousness of the waking state be termed the conscient, what lies above is called the supra-conscient and what which lies below is the infra-conscient. The latter has two layers; the sub-conscient that can throw up its stored impressions in dreams, and the inconscient. 

The subconscient then corresponds to taijasa and the inconcient to prajna.

Search for Soul...

--- In TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com, devindersingh gulati <dgulhati@ wrote:

  For 30,000 years at least, since the emergence of our species on earth, man has struggled to understand truth. The self is the agent  of experience and action says Nayaya, one of six systems of Indian thought that has engaged with the question. It is the knower,enjoyer, and actor. Its body is the organ of knowledge feeling and action.   

What is knowledge? What is life? The pundits do not agree on a definition that is work-in-progress yet.
  The vaisesika [of the six knowledge systems] regards life as  a particular kind of effort or volition of self (jivanayonipriyatna).  Inhalation, exhalation and the like are its actions. They are due to the vital efforts of the self.

 
  There is no permanent self says the Buddhist. A person is a mind body complex, an aggregate of thirty two kinds of organic matter and five constituent elements of being, outward form (rupa), feelings (vedana), ideas (samjana), dispositions (samskara) and consciousness (vijnana). There is no permanent ego or self. The self here is equated with ego. 

  The samkhya [knowledge system] regards the body, the sense organs, mind (manas), intellect (buddhi), and egoism (ahamkar) as the evolutes of prakriti constituted of sattava, rajas and tamas.There is interaction between mind and body in perception and volition but there is no interaction between self and body or mind. The self is
  conscious. The mind is unconscious. 

  According to Jaina the self (jiva) and the not-self (ajiva) are two entirely different substances. The former is conscious, incorporeal and immaterial, while the latter is unconscious, corporeal and material. Matter (pudgala) is not-self. Every embodied self (samsara jiva) has a soul and body.

  The advaita Vedanta [knowledge system] regards the gross body as composed of of five elements. It  is the instrument of waking experience. The five external sense organs are produced by the five quintipuled elements. The auditory organ is produced by ether, the tactual organ by air, the visual organ by light, the gustatory organ by water, and the olfactory organ by earth. The four internal organs mind (manas) intellect (buddhi) egoism (ahamakara) and memory (citta) are produced  by the five elements collectively with a predominance of sattava.
  The five motor organs the vocal organ, the prehensive organ, the locomotive organ, the excretory organ, and the generative organ are produced by the five elements with a predominance of rajas. The organs
  themselves are insentient, producing their effect under the guidance of the conscious self. The five vital airs " prana, apana, vyana, udana and samana are produced by the five elements collectively with a predominance of rajas.
  According to sankhya, life is not physical (bhautika) force but the common function of all sense organs. It is sustained by the powers of the sense organs.  The five kinds of vital forces â€" prana, apana, udhana,  samana and vyana " are the modes of internal organs [ manas, buddhi,ahamkara]. They are airs because of their motions. The five vital forces are the common functions of the sense organs. 

  Samkara considers the five vital forces to be the different modes of one common life. Prana is the air that is inhaled. Apana is the air that is exhaled. Vyana is the air that pervades the body. Udana resides in the throat. It is the air that is belched out. Samana is the air that resides in the intestines and digests food and drink.

  The Advaita Vedanta gives a materialistic view of the nature and origin of life. The Samkhya gives an idealistic view tending towards the materialistic because it regards the external and internal organs as evolutes of prakriti or primal matter. The Vaisesika takes an idealist view as it traces life to a voilition of self. 

  The Prapariscara Tantra [knowledge system] describes ten vital forces. Prana courses upward. Apansa courses downward. Samana assimilatesfood. Vyana distributes the chyle (rasa) all over the body. Udana
  accompanies prana (life) and and produces movement of the eyes. Naga is the cause of belching. Kurma is the cause of opening the eyes.Krkara is the cause of hunger. Devdatta is the cause of yawining. Dhananjaya causes various sounds. 
  As we can see knowledge is a variable across knowledge systems, none of which can seemingly claim infaliability. 

Sri Aurobindo however points out, "All knowledge lies within" . It can be accessed by anyone who has purified the lower modes of knowing of all its grossness through the yogic discipline.

  [Excerpted and rearranged from Indian Psychology Vol-II pages 13-21 by Jadunath Sinha, Motilal Banarsidas, New Delhi] 
  
  Gulati 
 _______

Modern Science, Emotions,...

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Srinivasa Rao Kankipati <ksrao34g@gmail.com> wrote:

I am not able to follow much of the scholarly discussion that is going on. But I understand Dr Ramarao's statement that modern science has not yet found ways of dealing with emotion and volition in living beings by using mathematics.

In mathematics, symbols are used as a sort of shorthand for the notions that they represent. You must first be clear about the notion and then use the symbol to stand for that notion. Symbols do not bring out notions that do not exist in your mind and are not understood commonly among the community of scientists. Symbols are no substitute for clarity, they only enhance clarity because we  can manipulate them wonderfully in mathematical grammar. They may not have any direct association for any aspect of the notion they represent. For example, the circumference of a circle is pi times the diameter. Nobody knows what exactly is pi's value. You can obtain its value to as great a degree of accuracy as you want. But you can play with pi as though it has an exact value. Mathematical equations are not the less accurate because its value is not  known exactly.

As for consciousness, first of all people do not define what consciousness is. Then they want to use a symbol for it and manipulate it. I do not know how it can be done.

My idea of consciousness is that it is a feature of a living organism enabling it at will to recall information. This ability is not amenable to any symbolic representation. If a man knows something, that means he is able to recall that something at will. Now, that information must have been recorded in his brain by some means. It is the business of science to investigate and establish what that 'means' is. It is not for religionists to talk about consciousness. At the drop of a hat they bring in Divinity or God and pontificate about "Consciousness", as though consciousness were a material thing like matter or aspect like energy. Where God enters - particularly at the behest of people who think they have personal intimacy with Him - science quits. Knowing, or being conscious, or being aware, is just a process in the human brain. "Mr A has consciousness" just means that Mr A knows, which means that Mr A can recall some information in question at will. 

I confess I do not understand what is meant by saying that 'central to consciousness is awareness', as I am not aware how to separate these two. I am also at a total loss as to what is sought to be meant by the statement "Consciousness is a spiritual function", much less that it can be represented by the letter S.

All the books, CDs, DVDs, etc in a library constitute information, not knowledge. Any portion of information in them can become knowledge of any person if that person not only records that information in his brain but is also able to recall that information at will. A computer can also store and recall information, but the fundamental difference is that it cannot recall it on its own volition, it needs to be commanded or programmed for this task by somebody outside it.

A patient who has undergone surgery under anesthesia cannot recall the operation, because the details of the experience have not been recorded in his brain. But the human brain has the wonderful capacity to break down any data accessed by it through the senses and subject various selected bits thereof,  to various permutations even without the subsequent help of the senses, to form some totally new data. It is not concerned whether that resultant data has a corresponding reality in the outside world. It is this power of the human brain, this power of imagination, that is at the foundation of all path-breaking discoveries. Not that all imagination leads to a new discovery, but discovery is not generally possible unless aided by imagination first and validation next.

Only a living being is capable of knowing. Living is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for knowing. Not all living beings may be enjoying the faculty of knowing, I do not know. Also, cells are a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition  for a living being to form. Not all cells, or the organs  which they comprise, constitute a living being. A man's eyes may be having the life-force in them for some time even though  their original owner may have been dead for a few hours, and can start being live again as before in a new, living person's body.

Similarly molecules are necessary for the formation of cells. Molecules are a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for cells. Not all the molecules automatically form 

into cells.

If we take matter molecules again, atoms of elements are a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for the formation of molecules. Not all elements have formed molecules. Atoms (or quarks, if you like, including the Higgs Boson) again are the original, primordial raw material which is also interconvertible into energy, as established by science in an incontrovertible manner. Who knows that even more fundamental constituents of matter may be discovered by science in times to come. 

Advaitists have theorised that there is a primordial material called Mahat underlying both Matter (Akasha) and Energy (Prana).

As matters stand now, we have a graded Existence (Sat) consisting of Mahat, Matter, Energy, Non-Living things, Living Cells, Beings with life, Living Beings with the faulty of Knowing, in that order. For the existence and functioning of  any component of Existence, the presence of the previous component is essential. But at each stage a new activity is entering to make that stage tick. How exactly a new faculty is entering at each stage is for science to probe and unravel. Religion can keep its hands off from this task and stop making weird assertions in an authoritarian manner, as if they were authoritative revelations from Divinity.

I also do not know, like Maj Rudra Narasimham, how Adi Sankara, after explaining the highest Advaita philosophy, got down in his later life to the concept of Dwaita by creating a separate Govinda and asking people to "bhaja" Him. This is an anomaly. Perhaps this was an attempt to reach the common men, who by and large have no original thinking. But Sankara could have left this task to other preachers. This sudden drop from his high pedestal is like the act of a man who leaves his father at home and chases another old man to 'see' his father in him.

- Dr K Srinivasa Rao, from Fremont, California.

"..on flaws in Adi Shankara's Advaita."

Forwarded by B V Ramarao for your views, more so in regard to Dr. Rudra Narasimham garu's comments on flaws in Adi Shankara's Advaita.

 

---

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 07:36:06 -0700
From: rebbapragada@sbcglobal.net

Subject: Re: [Shared Post] SPIRITUALISM - THE TRUTH ABOUT SOUL OR SPIRIT

STATIC vs DYNAMIC :

Thanks for that kind response. It could be important to know about the structure and composition of matter. For living matter, we need structural, and functional organization at the level of "MOLECULES". The smallest molecule is called 'ion' as it has an electrical charge and is not a 'neutral' molecule. The most important 'ion' in the human body is Hydrogen ion, the Hydrogen atom without its negative charge bearing electron. It is shown as H+ as it is simply the proton of the Hydrogen atom. In Biology, the concern is not about fundamental particles and their behavior. Life does not exist and does not perform the living functions at the level of structural and functional organization that we can observe in fundamental particles. The particle may exhibit motion or vibration and that is not a living function and this motion cannot be compared to the 'ameboid' motion that is the characteristic of living matter and could be observed by looking at Amoeba proteus animalcule. There is no biological function called 'Consciousness' at the level of atoms and its constituent subatomic particles. The taste of Water molecule cannot be discovered by tasting the atoms of hydrogen or oxygen or any other particle that may contribute to the structure and composition of the Water molecule. To understand Biology, you must be prepared to make the distinction between a chemical element and a chemical compound. The subatomic particle has no 'awareness' of its own existence and it has no choice about its state of existence. Living matter is distinct and the term "STATIC" cannot be applied to Living thing or Living Entity. Kindly quote that Indian tradition in which the term "STATIC" is used to describe an Ultimate Reality called 'BRAHMAN'. I have known the terms 'SAGUNA' and 'NIRGUNA'. Most of you understand Indian traditions, Indian Scriptures and Indian thoughts about a Reality described as Brahman. I want a written reference where the word 'STATIC' is used or implied to define Brahman. It is my understanding, Indian thinkers could have used the term 'Resting Potential' and Kinetic Potential to describe Brahman that is either at 'rest' or 'active'. The term 'Static'  includes a meaning such as 'inactive' or 'stationary'. Kindly tell me if Brahman is living or non-living. If Brahman is a Living thing, the Living thing is never 'static' and is always 'dynamic'. A living thing could be 'dormant' for a period of time, a living cell may not be dividing and in Biology it is called the 'Resting Phase'. During its 'Resting Phase', the living cell performs thousands of functions and is never 'inactive'. The cell is inactive when an event called 'cellular death' occurs. A living thing may remain passive, but is never 'static'. Living is a dynamic process and when matter is living it is always in a state of motion. In my blog post, 'The Truth about Soul or Spirit', I have basically refuted the theory of ADVAITA as proposed by Adi Shankara as his view is not consistent with Biology. It appears that his interpretation of Upanishads could be wrong and he has changed his views and later directed people to chant 'Bhaja Govindam, Bhaja Govindam'. If 'SELF' and 'GOVINDA' are identical and exist without any dualism, why would he ask to seek Govinda with a sense of utter devotion?

I appreciate your concern about the origin of emotions in living things. Kindly discuss the origin of an emotion called 'devotion'.

 

Rudra N Rebbapragada

Ann Arbor, MI 48104-4162, USA

http://BhavanaJagat.com

Dr. R. Rudra Narasimham, B.Sc., M.B.B.S.,

Ex- Number. MS-8466 Rank Lieutenant/Captain  AMC/SSC,

Medical Officer, South Column, Operation Eagle(1971-72),

Ex- Number. MR-03277K Rank Captain/Major  AMC/DPC

Medical Officer, Headquarters Establishment No. 22 C/O 56 APO(1971-74),

Directorate General of Security,

Office of Inspector General Special Frontier Force,

East Block V, Level IV, R. K. Puram,

New Delhi - 110 022 - India.

"Truth about Soul & Spirit"

Rudra Narasimham garu raises some very important questions related the duality, the distinction between non-living and living, the use of symbolism in physics etc. I still have not been able to see what exactly is the link for Gurjada Murty garu's mathematical thesis that deals with the issue of consciousness being integrated into current day Physics. Hope one of you will give me that link. In the meanwhile, I would like to invite your attention to Bell's theorem on non locality in particle physics and its experimental verification by Aspect , the double slit experiments with light photons in quantum theory, John Wheeler's delayed choice thought exeriments and last but not the least in the recent interest in the Higgs Field and Higgs Bosons ( metaphorically named God particles ). My synthesis of all these recent developments in Physics is another musing from a Weird Scientist like me. Here it is for whatever it is worth for discussion. Higgs Field, Brahman and God According to the Standard Model of Modern Physics, the Higgs field and the Higgs Bosons are the ultimate sources for the masses of all other particles that make up our universe. The Standard Model and the Big Bang theory of Modern Physics do not recognize that the Eternal Void is also the source of our emotions. Ancient seers of India on the other hand knew that Emotions central to all life cannot arise unless the potentiality for them exists in the Eternal Primordial Void. They called the Static Potentiality of the Ultimate Source of our Universe by the name Nirguna Brahman and its Dynamic Realization in the Universe by the name Saguna Brahman. Nirguna in Sanskrit means Emotions only in Potentiality and Sarguna means their evolution in Space and Time in cycles eternal. Each cycle is said to be 4.32 billions of years of potentiality and another 4.32 billions years of its dynamic manifestation.  More details on these concepts reveal a striking order of magnitude agreement for the age of our universe between this Cosmology and Modern Cosmology. With these thoughts in mind,  I venture to suggest that the Higgs field might very well be the Nirguna Brahman of Hinduism that is vibrant with Chaitanya loosely translated as Consciousness. This makes sense since as I said earlier in this post, emotions among life forms cannot arise without the potentiality for them being present in the primordial field. When that field operates on the material world that arises out of itself, the dynamism of field interactions sets in resulting in what the ancients called Saguna Brahman.  These ideas are  consistent with the Abrahamic religions as well if you think of God in terms of Pantheistic and Panentheistic notions. That's why God is said to be not only Omnipresent and and Omnipotent but also Omniscient. For more on Pantheism and Panentheism and the subtle difference between the two and how scholars have made the connection between them and Hindu Advaita, one can do a Google search.  It's time that Modern Scientists recognize these ideas and seek ways to modify the World View based on the Standard Model and the Big Bang Theory without making an arbitrary distinction between the living and the non-living and try to unify Biology, Genetics and Neuroscience with Physics. Only another Giant like Einstein can achieve this kind of unification Gopala Rao Utukuru Gopala Rao <marygopala@yahoo.com>